Author Topic: Knife fighting evaluation thread  (Read 151 times)

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Knife fighting evaluation thread
« on: February 19, 2022, 12:38:13 pm »
Title.
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Paul vs Gurney (Dune 2021 trailer)
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2022, 12:40:01 pm »


Because it's shield combat (only slow strikes go through a Dune force shield) it's supposed to be different, and it is. There's more feinting, the real attacks are slow, and you can afford to take a hit because of the shield.

I asked a friend who makes knives and does some martial arts, and he says it's pretty good. The moves look a lot like silat, an Indonesian knife martial art where you block primarily by striking at their arm. It's also like kali (also known as escrima) a Philippine martial art based around stickfighting.

In kali, there are ten basic strikes, which you can learn about here. I've watched the gif frame by frame. In the first fighting shot of the gif, Gurney attacks with Strike 1, and Paul blocks with his forearm. Gurney uses Strike 2, and Paul either parries or does a Strike 1 with his right knife. Paul then replies with a Strike 2, throwing Gurney's arm aside.
     In the next shot, Gurney is swinging downward in Strike 9. Paul blocks with his left hand and throws Gurney off balance, then drops down and winds up for a Strike 4 as Gurney comes down with another Strike 2. Both strikes land, but are stopped by the shields.

Gurney's footwork doesn't look great, but Paul's is good from what I can see (it's the movement advantage that allows him to make that knee strike). Really, I'd say that's great closing skill. I've recreated that move in sparring with friends, and I think that it would only work if you close, throw the enemy off balance (like Paul does) and then dropped down to strike. That aiming for the leg instead of the side is a bad idea is probably not true, because your opponent is striking at you and will expect you to stay high. So whether the move is a good idea depends on the context, which the trailer doesn't show. Gurney probably should've be ready for something like it, but since we don't have the whole fight I can't say whether Paul made a foolish rush or a brilliantly timed one.

The swords/knives they're using are called kindjals. Unlike the book, they're straight-bladed and single-edged. It's similar to the Japanese sword called the Dao. Here's some dao sparring:

It's quite similar to Dune.


Overall, I'd say Dune seems very accurate thus far.
Rating: 8/10
« Last Edit: April 09, 2022, 05:37:16 pm by Dutch »
"If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"
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Full fight from Dune 2021
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2022, 12:41:02 pm »


(With the director's commentary.)

So we now have the whole fight, and it's glorious. It totally showcases real-life martial arts, along with subtle differences because of the shields.

Again, the fight uses a lot of kali/arnis/eskrima, and Gurney also seems to be familiar with German messer. The first section really showcases the style of Balintawak Eskrima (yes, I pasted that name). Here's a grandmaster of that style in action:


In all kali, the off hand (hand without a weapon) is used to block and deflect the attacks of the enemy. In Balintawak Eskrima, this is dialed up to 11. The left hand is a flurry of motion, being the primary defensive tool. The idea is the push the enemy's arm aside as they strike so you can use your own weapon.

Anyway, on to the breakdown!

Gurney is powerful, aggressive, and brutal. His footwork is solid, planted and concrete. Gurney's feints (false strikes) consist of power strikes, and his strategy consists of trying to overwhelm and overpower Paul before landing slow hits designed to penetrate the shield.
Paul is graceful and agile. His footwork uses a lot of sidesteps, true to the foundations of kali.
Gurney and Paul are both using short swords like the Dao. When I said in an earlier post that they were kindjals I was wrong. Actually, Gurney's might be one.

The fight starts with some excellent close combat that's really a treat to watch, with excellent flow, technique, and speed, though it's a bit too clean and idealized. Gurney twirls his sword and the two attack. Paul attacks with a thrust—Gurney avoids and strikes the back of Paul's body shield. Gurney attacks again. Paul blocks and counters. After several exchanges Paul gets to the side of Gurney and strikes his trainer's knee shield with the hilt of his own sword as Gurney lands a similar hit to his head shield. Paul jumps back up and  attempts to throw Gurney off balance, but Gurney moves in too fast for that and passes his sword through the shield, pressing it to Paul's neck.

Then Gurney charges again. First off, Gurney attacks with strike #10 (straight thrust at the chest). Paul sidesteps, but before he can riposte, Gurney comes back with strike #4, a horizontal swing from the left. Paul is surprised and barely manages to block. Then Gurney twists his sword around Paul's in a messer-like technique and disarms him with a quick movement before sweeping at him with a slow strike #4. Paul voids and leaps over the table before grabbing a couple of daggers from the top.

Gurney swings down with a #1. Paul dodges and lands a hit on his trainer's arm, which is stopped by the shield. Gurney recovers with a #4 while drawing Paul's attention to his off hand, which Paul lands a hit on. Paul dodges Gurney's strike before the latter attacks with another #1. Paul blocks with his forearm and appears to try a #7 strike, a high thrust on the right. Gurney intercepts it with a #2, but Paul intercepts his counterattack with another #2 with his left knife, shoving Gurney's arm aside. However, he doesn't take advantage of the opening in time before Gurney brings his arm back with a #4 and then uses a powerful #10 to knock Paul down.

Paul switches grips. The advantage of the reverse grip is that he can easily deflect enemy strikes with either hand. Gurney closes and strikes with another #1. Paul deflects his arm with his left hand (amazing technique there) and then rushes in to land a hit on Gurney's knee, which looks to be just fast enough to be stopped by the latter's shield.

Gurney falls back and Paul presses his attack. He lands a double #5 strike with both hands, then brings his right hand back in another #5 very quickly. These strikes are aimed at Gurney's face and so they temporarily blind him with the shield flashes. Gurney switches his sword to his left hand as Paul spins (a very realistic spin), catches Gurney's strike with his right hand, and trips his trainer up with a hook-type #3 behind the knee. Gurney falls to the floor and Paul brings his knives to the former's throat. Gurney says, "You'd have joined me in death," as Paul realizes that Gurney's sword is through the shield and pointed at his heart.

Only problems: When Paul deflects Gurney's arm, it goes way too far (as if Paul were superhumanly strong). Gurney doesn't do much in the last few seconds, seeming to want to get hit—though he does move a bit, it's not enough.

Overall, though, I'd say this is a masterpiece. The characters are fast, skilled, not overly flashy, etc, even if some movements are exaggerated. It also reflects the difference of shield-combat. 8/10.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2022, 06:40:49 am by Dutch »
"If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"
—Classmate

"Sure I believe in global warming. The earth warms every summer!"
—Another classmate

"THE EVOLUTION THEORY IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVR HEARD OF!!!!!"
—Email to Talk.Orgins.Org

"The Joke Is On You ONEists,
I have SuperNatural Wisdom.
NO God mentality can Know my 4 Day Cube.
No Bible Word equals my TimeCubed Earth."
—Gene Ray

"Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids."
—Joe Biden

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Rogers vs Winter Soldier: Captain America 2
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2022, 12:41:42 pm »




An expert in kali knife training liked this fight, though she found some definite problems.


She points out that Steve/Cap is not deflecting the Winter Soldier's strikes enough, instead just blocking. Also, the grip-switching knife toss would be fine if they were at a longer distance, but in close combat it's not a good idea, as it's too flashy and takes too long.

In addition, some of the other movements are clearly exaggerated and unrealistic.

Rating: 6/10 (my rating is different from hers because I think the good understanding of force and power is a strong point)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 12:59:01 pm by Dutch »
"If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"
—Classmate

"Sure I believe in global warming. The earth warms every summer!"
—Another classmate

"THE EVOLUTION THEORY IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVR HEARD OF!!!!!"
—Email to Talk.Orgins.Org

"The Joke Is On You ONEists,
I have SuperNatural Wisdom.
NO God mentality can Know my 4 Day Cube.
No Bible Word equals my TimeCubed Earth."
—Gene Ray

"Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids."
—Joe Biden

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Paul vs Jamis (Dune 2021)
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2022, 12:50:28 pm »


I don't have time for a full review right now, but I love this fight. It's far from perfect, with some exaggeration in the techniques and rather weird distance, but it's still one of the best. Jamis is portrayed in a manner true to the novel—aggressive, unpredictable, overconfident, and sloppy. Paul's rather lackluster fighting and refusal to attack much stems from his reluctance to fight and inexperience with actual killing.

The Fremen fighting style is based on Rostami, an obscure Persian self-defense school, but that doesn't make is fundamentally different from all other fighting—all martial arts based on the same weapon are bound to be similar.

Paul's repeated besting of Jamis looks great, though a bit idealized.

Jamis's death results from his underestimation of Paul and his poor understanding of distance. Paul was able to easily sidestep and land the fatal hit. I don't really like how Jamis switches hands behind his back, but then, he's desperate and furious. I've done really dumb things in sparring because I was scared.

This fight deserves a 7.5 or 8.
"If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"
—Classmate

"Sure I believe in global warming. The earth warms every summer!"
—Another classmate

"THE EVOLUTION THEORY IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVR HEARD OF!!!!!"
—Email to Talk.Orgins.Org

"The Joke Is On You ONEists,
I have SuperNatural Wisdom.
NO God mentality can Know my 4 Day Cube.
No Bible Word equals my TimeCubed Earth."
—Gene Ray

"Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids."
—Joe Biden

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This is one of my favorite fight scenes ever.

The kali expert above gave it a 9/10 in the category of kali/eskrima techniques. I'm gonna give it an 8 overall, as some of the moves are way exaggerated (the spin kick at 0:30) and the assassin doesn't seem to understand distance. However, Bourne seems very capable and really impresses me with his offense.

Bourne is not trying to kill his opponent—he wants to take him alive. The assassin, on the other hand, definitely wants to kill Bourne.

I love the improvisation here. A pen is a great weapon, even against a small knife.

Note: A lot of people want to do martial arts because of how awesome Bourne is. But they fail to understand—to be able to protect yourself that well in actual combat, you need to have experience in actual combat. Not even MMA, with it brutal sparring, will give you that.
     Also, if you kill someone in self-defense, you can go to jail if the court decides you needlessly used deadly force. If you think you're in danger, run. Bourne didn't have that option, but you're not Bourne.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2022, 12:00:13 pm by Dutch »
"If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"
—Classmate

"Sure I believe in global warming. The earth warms every summer!"
—Another classmate

"THE EVOLUTION THEORY IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVR HEARD OF!!!!!"
—Email to Talk.Orgins.Org

"The Joke Is On You ONEists,
I have SuperNatural Wisdom.
NO God mentality can Know my 4 Day Cube.
No Bible Word equals my TimeCubed Earth."
—Gene Ray

"Poor kids are just as bright and just as talented as white kids."
—Joe Biden

 

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